1. 

   Randdalf
   May 28th, 2010 - 23:38

   In response to Skinnie’s comment, I’d like to point out that the Buff Banner has the potential to be as much of a game changer as a Kritzkrieg, and yet it is banned.

   1
2. 

   honeymustard
   May 28th, 2010 - 23:49

   Seems like a lot of top players would rather just ban anything than bother testing items. Someone in these comments did say that they wanted the crit a cola banned due to scouts being able to snipe medics with their pistols – despite the fact that crit a cola replaces the pistol. And another guy did say that it should be banned as scouts would be able to one shot medics, despite it only giving scattergun ~130-40 damage max.

   3
3. 

   Steven
   May 28th, 2010 - 23:54

   The reason BB is banned is because unlike Uber and Kritz there is no accurate way of predicting when an opponent has a charged BB.

   It’s too random.

   Not to mention the fact with an organised team it is OP.

   1
4. 

   gniedler
   May 28th, 2010 - 23:58

   what enoryt said.
   they already went through coldfront and unlocks, so why do we have to do that again?

   0
5. 

   Telebear
   May 29th, 2010 - 00:19

   to make sure

   0
6. 

   Sturmis
   May 29th, 2010 - 00:21

   Comparing BB with Kritz is simply retarded. For those who fail to grasp the obvious: kritz is a high-risk weapon for a gain ranging from nothing to destroying galaxies, while BB’s biggest con is not being able to wear gunboats, with a reward usually bigger and more certain than kritz. Also, as Steven said, there’s no way to predict when it’s ready, often there’s no warning of it being used, hurray for sudden instakill rocket from around the corner. And if BB was allowed and teams learned to use it to it’s full potential, who would use kritz? No one.

   0
7. 

   TopGear
   May 29th, 2010 - 00:21

   I have no idea why the Buff Banner is banned, and stevens point above makes no sense at all. I good incdicator that a soldier has rage filled is if he just killed your whole team, or if he didnt die recently. Skinnies post is spot on, although personally I quite like the introduction of new weapons into the game, just because they are allowed does not mean people will use them anyway, but its nice to have the choice.

   0
8. 

   honeymustard
   May 29th, 2010 - 00:52

   “often there’s no warning of it being used”

   What about the huge banner that sticks out of the back pack, the glowing yellow guns, and the glowing yellow circles that appear at player’s feet?

   0
9. 

   enoryt
   May 29th, 2010 - 01:08

   I think bb should stay banned, it changes gameplay to much. A team can uber a bb soldier and on top of that everyone around gets minicrits, which potentially has a higher damage output than kritz, stupid imo. I don’t even think getting the rage is that difficult, you can get it pretty easily if you have the opposing team on 2 and you have 3. They can’t justify pushing cuz of respawns and the fact their defending therefore a soldier can just take a med on him and deal/take shit ton of damage to get it up and than push w/ that.

   2
10. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 01:12

    I cba to read right now but one thing I will say…

    @spaceboy

    You’ll never see the top players calling players in divisions below them bad. It’s usually only the D2/D3 players calling each other/lower div players bad.

    We all know how much the community means – from D14 to D1. Every player is vitally important. D1 players aren’t in any way *more* important individually, it’s just that as a group they are generally the ones that forge the way for TF2 in terms of displaying the best games, the highest consistent amount of skill and also in terms of picking which game modes/unlocks/maps are best to do so.

    1
11. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 01:13

    oh and @honeymustard

    again, those comments weren’t made by top players were they?

    we’re generally reasonably well informed *and* all of the unlocks have been pretty heavily tested, although the gunboats I’ll admit to being tested less so, but we’ve seen the effect against the yanks/watching the yanks.

    1
12. 

    zerox
    May 29th, 2010 - 01:14

    got to black skinnie up on this

    0
13. 

    honeymustard
    May 29th, 2010 - 01:27

    Not div1, but still. There are a lot of ignorant users around.

    2
14. 

    enoryt
    May 29th, 2010 - 01:28

    So what are your thoughts on gunboats dunc?

    0
15. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 02:11

    There are indeed honey, I was just trying to make the point about the D1 players being able to provide a reasonably objective and accurate point of view when it comes to these matters.

    My thoughts on the gunboats, purely from what I’ve seen in some NA demos and in the FB vs eMazing game, are that they don’t really provide anything positive to the game. When you play with an unlock that forces the opponents to use it too, that unlock – IMO – shouldn’t be allowed.

    Gunboats basically allows soldiers to jump aggressively on the medic with more HP and often faster too as more creative double jumps can be used to get on the medic more quickly. It’s already hard enough for the med and demo to avoid aggressive soldiers in certain situations. Even when it’s 3v1 or 4v1 the sol can occasionally come away with a kill, in my experience he’s the class that’s most likely to do so in an outnumbered situation. With MORE health and quicker jumps the chance of getting a kill is raised significantly.

    IMO TF2 is at its most fun when you really see the team elements of the game working. The timed pushes, the flanking, the aggressive with and without uber pushes, etc. For me the game becomes less fun when “pick classes” are involved, and with the gunboats, that’s effectively what the roaming soldier becomes.

    That may be a biased POV from a player that can only play medic, but I’m sure quite a few non-medic players would agree with me. Also, good luck trying to find D1 medics when hocz jumps on your head with 275HP every 30 seconds :)

    0
16. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 02:12

    allow* gfd

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17. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 02:15

    ohh and I 100% agree with Natascha now being completely fucking retarded

    Not naming any names (’sup skinrox), two natascha defence is utterly fucking retarded and essentially game-breaking.

    1
18. 

    enoryt
    May 29th, 2010 - 02:36

    Gunboats imo don’t have that much impact in a game. Sure your roamer may be fast to mid but at what expense, you take the hp pack therefore your demo doesn’t have adequate hp to fight as well as he ought too. It may be effective for a round or two, but once the other team knows, its rendered useless, if its countered your a body down with ur demo at lower hp EARLY in a midfight. On top of that no shotgun to finish killls, so if your soldier is jumping or double jumping, he’s got about 2 rockets to make them count. The play is not a guaranteed success and adds a bit more dynamic to the mid play.

    “IMO TF2 is at its most fun when you really see the team elements of the game working. The timed pushes, the flanking, the aggressive with and without uber pushes, etc. For me the game becomes less fun when “pick classes” are involved, and with the gunboats, that’s effectively what the roaming soldier becomes.”

    I think thats what makes the game more exciting, these pick classes, you can do high risk, high reward plays to instantly turn the tides, like killing the med as sniper/spy pick, gay stickies, all that promotes a more exciting spectator friendly match. And pick classes fall under team elements, spy/sniper/bombing soldier plays don’t just happen, most of the time these plays are called and it displays really good coordination between team and individuals. Pick classes wouldn’t be as effective without the teamwork element.

    3
19. 

    darn
    May 29th, 2010 - 02:44

    no.

    2
20. 

    Koeitje
    May 29th, 2010 - 02:50

    +1 skinnie, dunc and all the other baddies

    0
21. 

    enoryt
    May 29th, 2010 - 02:52

    Invite/div1 teams are so set in stone in how plays “ought” to play out that they lose the drive to be creative in strats. Top tier players need to relax, you’re the best for a reason. You don’t have to worry about new idiots coming in with super weapons to off your team. Banning different weapons because their new or w/e is the worst way to go and and we can learn a few things from lower teams. I truly believe creativity stems from lower teams. Our team has learned so many little tips and tricks lower teams do in order to succeed. Ex. going spy to see if they switched uber/kritz by disguisin as enemy med and than switching to a class to counter accordingly, creatin tele’s when last point is impossible to break all that good stuff. Quirky things that is out of the ordinary in invite/div1 levels of play. Sorry I went totally off topic, just felt like writing even though i write like shit.

    6
22. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 03:02

    ‘fraid we’ll just have to agree to disagree then :) You’re entitled to your opinion of course, and it doesn’t mean yours is wrong and mine is right, just that I prefer the game the way it’s played at the moment.

    To me, if pick classes were the way the game should move forward, maps like Badwater and Goldrush would be preferable to the beloved Granlands style maps.

    0
23. 

    enoryt
    May 29th, 2010 - 03:09

    true enough. haha glad this didn’t turn into a shitstorm.

    0
24. 

    Sneis
    May 29th, 2010 - 03:49

    If you like gun boats that makes it easier for the most boring tactic to face in tf2 (solly jump jump holding mouse one aiming on medic which he lands on) plz go ahead and allow it… if not, plz ban it.

    also whatever arguments you have for allowing tdh, one hitting stuff just makes everything minor. Plus if you can actually aim it is op. It gives us nothing and adds lameness!

    0
25. 

    torden
    May 29th, 2010 - 03:53

    no 100. Boom!

    0
26. 

    Sneis
    May 29th, 2010 - 04:09

    btw dunc youre a very smart, nice, creative person with a lot of ideas and thoughts about tf2, the development of this wonderful game + you have enough willpower to actually do something awesome with… whatever it is you have.

    it makes me happy to see that you recently write like a normal person that everyone can take seriously, no offence but a few weeks ago i always had to look above all your bs to find your real thoughts and ideas.

    :D keep it up

    4
27. 

    kuma
    May 29th, 2010 - 05:12

    All unlocks should be allowed. It might change the meta, but the game should reward those who can adapt. Vanilla may be fine for you, but others don’t find building uber and spamming for 5 mins in stalemate games fun.

    The game isn’t like SC where the meta changes every few months despite no changes being made to the game. TF2 needs external stimuli to stay dynamic and evolve. Playing the same game for 2 years gets stale and boring, and is the reason many get burned out and quit.

    Develop new strategies if a weapon is good in a specific situation. e.g. Some believe TDH promotes defensive play as RJ’s are more risky. Then push in a way that takes advantage of the lower accuracy of the TDH by ubering in scouts instead. Find ways to flank instead of bombing in with RJs.

    It’s no excuse to ban a weapon because it’s “annoying”. I find stickies annoying, does that mean they should be banned? No, they’re fine because they’re now an established part of the game, however annoying they maybe. Perhaps if the unlocks were all released at the start, they would be played now. It’s only because the old guard are comfortable with how things are now and lazy to adapt, that they are scared of unlocks.

    4
28. 

    blind
    May 29th, 2010 - 05:46

    People have played games for 10 years (CS?) with barely any updates coming out, at all. TF2 is like what, 3?, gets updated constantly and changes a bit after every one. At this point imo you just have to make TF2 as enjoyable as possible, not give as many possibilities for your creativity as you can. For example, TDH, no, its not OP, but it is hell of annoying to play against, its not fun to die cause a guy from the other side of the map clicked mouse1 randomly and thats pretty much how you get kills with tdh, you click mouse1 in the direction of the enemy choke.

    7
29. 

    Sturmis
    May 29th, 2010 - 08:24

    “The game isn’t like SC where the meta changes every few months despite no changes being made to the game. TF2 needs external stimuli to stay dynamic and evolve. Playing the same game for 2 years gets stale and boring, and is the reason many get burned out and quit.”

    Wrong. Just look at how teams played bl/gran/gp two years ago, compared to how they’re played now.

    1
30. 

    Eriksgaard
    May 29th, 2010 - 12:05

    ETF2L has gone from leading to barely following. Why are Kop and D2M still admins?

    4
31. 

    Draagskire
    May 29th, 2010 - 13:15

    i dont know eriksgaard but man i sure wish vanillatf2 had the balls to allow gossip posts about d2m’s unsavory behavior to be put up.

    0
32. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 13:17

    Eriksgaard change the fucking record. Originally it was “shut up dunc”, now it’s “D2M is badmin”. If you think you can do better, why don’t you step forward away from your alias and provide ETF2L with some ideas.

    Sneis, thanks, it’s an easy one though. During the day = bored at work. During the evening = not bored, sensible posts.

    :D

    4
33. 

    torden
    May 29th, 2010 - 13:23

    “People have played games for 10 years (CS?) with barely any updates coming out, at all.”

    CS? The game known for having the most notoriously obnoxious players in the world? I wouldn’t compare the games.

    0
34. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 13:27

    ’tisn’t the players we’re specifically comparing this time though, we’re comparing the playability of the games at the highest level.

    1
35. 

    torden
    May 29th, 2010 - 13:35

    Hehe, let me clarify there chief. Why are CS players so mad? A. Its either a different player base, or; B. a gameplay that makes them behave differently (in a negative manner). Neither of the cases are useful for TF2.

    0
36. 

    Darn!
    May 29th, 2010 - 13:41

    meeh cs are full of kids, has nothing to do with the actual game even its shite.

    1
37. 

    torden
    May 29th, 2010 - 13:48

    I feel a wave of off topic now. Lets leave the CS debate for something else.

    1
38. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 13:49

    nawr it’s still relevant to Sturmis’ comment, which in turn is relevant to the whole thread :)

    0
39. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 13:50

    oh it was blind’s comment, not Sturmis’, my bad :D

    0
40. 

    hippole
    May 29th, 2010 - 14:02

    Blind, isn’t ‘clicking mouse1 in the direction of the enemy choke’ a pretty standard thing in games at any level. Sure I understand how annoying it is to get 1 shot from a mile away but shooting at choke is hardly a new concept.

    1
41. 

    mercu
    May 29th, 2010 - 14:37

    Have to say, i pretty agree with skinnie’s comment and dunc’s ones.

    @ torden : I can’t really see the comparison with the mechanics sports, just remember a few years ago, FIA imposed a limt to all F1’s constructors to balance the engines’ power. It’s pretty much what we’re (I am ?) looking for.

    Of course, the technology will still be improved (it’s its main goal) but as for swimming, they decided to bann the last swimmings suits cause “it’s ruining the game”. (heard it already somewhere)

    As many, i feel the game extremely well balanced since they fixed the variable damages. Every fighting class has a chance to win in a 1vs1 situation.

    But for the improvement of gameplay, i really liked to see some changes with the weapons cause they don’t change the way the game is played (© skinnie).
    As examples : kritzkrieg, bonk and blast for pyros are maybe my favorites, even if the bonk is under-used in my opinion :)

    So my point is : a weapon which considerably change the already existing balance in a 1vs1 situation shoud be bann.

    2
42. 

    mustardoverlord
    May 29th, 2010 - 15:30

    …which gunboats solly does not

    maybe this is my american bias talking, but I think any sort of stimulus to make soldiers, especially roaming soldiers, more aggressive is a good thing

    I mean if a scout can flank and reliably two-shot a medic it’s equally as devastating as a gunboats soldier, maybe even moreso because he has less of a chance of being caught beforehand

    this might (again) be my american bias, but I think euro teams don’t wanna run gunboats soldier because they aren’t used to fighting roamers with more than 200 hp

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43. 

    dunc
    May 29th, 2010 - 15:51

    A wee addendum that I forgot to add from yesterday which applies to your post, mustard:

    When the roaming soldier adopts the Gunboats, he becomes a becomes a pick class, as I said before. Difference is, it becomes a pick class that can’t be easily killed. Spies and snipers have major weaknesses, the gunboat soldier doesn’t. The only weakness is that he doesn’t have the shotgun.

    Scouts can 2 shot medics, sure, but only if they’re allowed to get close enough. At top level, that only happens when a team is in disarray or when an opponent pushes with a clever, considered timed push, i.e. the sols push from the front and the medic either tries to escape and runs into scouts or whilst holding uber the scouts hit him from the side/back.

    That isn’t what I’m talking about though. I’m talking about the 3 or 4v1 situations such as Badlands CP3. Medic survives, has a scout and sol or demo alive. In that situation, if the opponent has a scout alive, 19 times out of 20 he’ll barely touch the medic. On the other hand a soldier has more of a chance and with the Gunboats the chance is significantly higher. Same applies in so many more situations, I don’t think I need to list them all.

    That, to me, isn’t conducive to enjoyable, flowing play. It makes for “stalematey” (speechmarks to denote a word I’ve just decided to make up), low-scoring games that are neither good to play in nor watch.

    3
44. 

    TopGear
    May 29th, 2010 - 16:30

    anyone for cake ?

    1
45. 

    TopGear
    May 29th, 2010 - 16:30

    no? ok more for me then

    1
46. 

    Josh
    May 30th, 2010 - 19:32

    If it is chocolate cake ok!

    0
47. 

    Jaeger
    June 4th, 2010 - 03:15

    “When the roaming soldier adopts the Gunboats, he becomes a becomes a pick class, as I said before. Difference is, it becomes a pick class that can’t be easily killed. Spies and snipers have major weaknesses, the gunboat soldier doesn’t. The only weakness is that he doesn’t have the shotgun.”

    You’re wrong.

    0
48. 

    USA!USA!
    June 4th, 2010 - 05:17

    come on, Jaeger. Gotta back that statement up with something, honey

    1
49. 

    Jaeger
    June 4th, 2010 - 09:51

    Well I actually play with them in serious matches for starters. You can watch my games or watch my streams. How about

    http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/7079256

    I run gunboats most of this match and I play predominantly a support role not a pick role.

    Good soldiers rocket jumping on the medic is mostly a function of the medic being poorly positioned or if the minimax situation makes sense for the soldier.

    Bad soldiers have no reason for their rocket jump dive bombs just like bad teams have no reason for their uber pushes.

    In general gunboats allow you to be more aggressive throughout the round which speeds 5cp maps up quite a bit.

    5
50. 

    DR. CHANG
    June 4th, 2010 - 11:14

    Whats that “Medic hurt” notice thingy you see in that demo?

    0
51. 

    t
    June 4th, 2010 - 11:21

    Jaeger do you have any demos you using them? Got frag’s tf2 section seems to be months out of date.

    0
52. 

    Voyager I
    June 4th, 2010 - 13:48

    I’m kinda confused here.

    People want to ban the Gunboats because it makes bombing like an idiot too easy, and then they also want to ban the Direct Hit because it’s too good at countering aerial play like the sort of idiots who bomb every life?

    Really can’t seen an argument for banning the Direct Hit now that you can’t Stairshot Medics.

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53. 

    LADY GAGA
    June 4th, 2010 - 15:03

    Although it might not be the case for Jaeger, for the majority of teams gunboating soldiers is pretty much a medic pick weapon. Medic has needed a buff since the beginning of time and shit like that.

    And gunboating will encourage dumb play among lower teams, as would the equalizer

    This game has only degenerated since the introduction of all these weapons…now we have crap like force of nature, natasha, and backburner

    leave these weapons to the pubs, for competitive play keep it vanilla

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54. 

    PYYYOUR
    June 4th, 2010 - 16:21

    http://www.esportsea.com/teams/23105

    click the annoying: continue to website

    and then click each match and the download demo option is there

    some do not work because of the countless updates

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55. 

    Jaeger
    June 4th, 2010 - 18:03

    Some stv and pov demos here:
    http://www.complexitygaming.com/index.php?c=file_listing&category=5

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56. 

    t
    June 5th, 2010 - 00:19

    Thanks guys. :D

    0

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